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General Discussion: Eigen 2.0 Announcement

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written by: john

EigenD News - Upcoming releases

We've now released EigenD 1.3 into Stable. This has represented over a years
work for the Eigenlabs team and contains some very significant improvements,
including Stage, our networked graphical control panel application, and an
advanced MIDI configuration and control matrix to get the best out of AU's,
VST's and external instruments along with dozens of other new features and
hundreds of bugfixes.

We will be making one more release in the 1.X series of EigenD, 1.4. This will
have no new features but will be a performance and stability release, along
with finally bringing the MacOS and Windows versions fully in line with each
other by completing the Tau and Alpha support on Windows 7, introducing full
headphone support for both. 1.4 will be the last release in the 1.X series of
EigenD.

It's been a long road from 1.0 and I'd like to take the opportunity to thank
all of you who have helped us improve and refine EigenD over the last two years
- your bug reports, suggestions and input have been vital.

From EigenD 2.0 onwards we will be introducing an annual subscription model for
EigenD which will cover all software updates to the base system, which includes
the Stage application. This will be charged at £90/yr or £49 for 6 months
(including VAT at 20%) and covers email suppport as well as software downloads
of the latest version of EigenD.

EigenD 2.0 is scheduled to contain a number of improvements and new features to
the current Eigend along with a considerable number of new bundled instruments
and effects. Subscription is by player, not instrument, so you will not need to
pay more than once if you own multiple models of Eigenharp.

Early subscribers will not have their one year period counted as beginning
until 2.0 enters stable release, but you will need to be a subscriber to gain
access to the early experimental and testing releases.

From 2.0 onwards we will also be introducing a new product, EigenD Pro, for
power users who wish to build and edit their own setups more easily. This
features EigenD, Stage and our new Workbench graphical application that allows
a user to build and customise their own setups quickly and easily. This will be
available by subscription in a similar way to the base EigenD and will cost
£249 a year or £139 for six months (including VAT at 20%). Customers who
purchase an annual EigenD Pro subscription during the period in which it is
classed as 'Experimental' will be able to do so for the discounted price of
£199 for the year.

Forum access will remain open to all registered players at the moment and will
not require a subscription to post. The open source release of EigenD will
continue to track the base system, and from time to time we will probably take
parts of the subscription release and put them in the public domain. The
decision hasn't been made yet but we may make a cut down read only version of
Stage for the GPL release so that there is a reduced functionality, completely
free release available with some Stage functionality. We won't be doing this
before next year though.

Purchasers of Eigenharps will get a one year subscription to EigenD (but not
EigenD Pro) included in the price, and if you bought your Eigenharp within the
last year you will qualify for the remainder of your years paid support as an
EigenD subscriber.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EigenD 2.0 FAQ:

- Will 1.3 and 1.4 remain free?

Yes they will. You do not have to subscribe if you do not want the new features,
media and capabilities in 2.0.

- How long will they remain supported for?

We will be bugfixing against them for the remainder of 2011, after that they will
remain free but they will no longer be updated.

- What will happen to the open source release?

It will continue to track the subscription release, missing some of the newer
functionality, in the same way it does today. From time to time we will
probably release features from the subscription releases into the public
domain. We remain commited to Open Source and our developer community.

- What happens to my software if I let my subscription lapse?

Nothing. A subscription enables you to download the latest version, once you
have done that it will continue to work even if your subscription subsequently
expires.

- Do you offer any educational discount?

At the moment we do not.

- What are the new features in 2.0?

The feature list for 2.0 is not yet finalised, but to date it includes a large
number of performance enhancements and system changes to enable setups to be
more configurable, several new Agents that enable new methods of performance
(the Strummer to enable guitar like behaviours and Fingerer to enable wind
instrument style fingerings) and a number of new bundled third party AU/VST
instruments and effects. We'll be releasing more information about the new
features during the 2.0 'Experimental' phase.

- What does Workbench do? Is it going to be worth the extra £159?

That's a hard question to answer. It adds three new significant features to the
Eigenharps and EigenD. Firstly it allows one to visually see and inspect the
signal flow, Agents and Ports inside any setup that is 2.X compatible. Secondly
it allows one to edit and change those setups, modifying the signal flow,
changing keyboard layouts by defining new Keygroups and deleting and adding
Agents. Thirdly it allows one to build setups from scratch, as simple as you
want or as rich as your computer hardware will support. If this is something
that is intersting to you then the answer is probably yes. If playing the
instrument using Factory setups is what you want to do, then probably not -
Stage already gives you extensive control over those. If you'd like to build
your own Setups then yes, we think so.

- Can I do any software programming in Workbench?

No, Workbench is configuration and routing tool, it does not have software
development features. If there is an Agent to do what you want to a signal you
can plumb it in Workbench to do just that, but if you want software programming
abilities then the open source release is your best bet - coding an agent is
not that difficult if you know a little Python and C++, and Agents written for
the Open Source release will work with all 2.X software.

- Will setups built for the 1.X series work with 2.X?

No, they will not. It has proven simply too technically difficult to make this
possible. There will be new factory setups for the 2.X series which
will be very similar to the existing setups for an easy playing transition.

- Why have you started charging for your software? It was always free before..

We always intended to charge a subscription for software updates - it is a
significant part of our business model and the continued development of EigenD
is simply not possible without it. We had originally intended that this
subscription would be tied to peoples support contracts and begin when these
expired. Several issues led us to wait on this, mainly that Windows was not
supported across the entire range and we felt (and our users had told us) that
our UI was not good enough. With 1.3 we felt that EigenD had reached a
watershed. It was very stable (being used by a lot of people playing live,
sometimes to audiences in the tens of thousands), had a great and highly
configurable user interface in Stage and with 1.4 was finally completely
equivalent across the MacOS and Windows platforms. It seemed a good point
to make a the jump to a new product. EigenD 2.0 has been in parallel development
to the 1.X series for around 18 months and represents a substantial investment
of time, creativity and resources for us. It is a response to a lot of feedback
from players and users and we hope that you enjoy it.

- What's happening with the IOS version of Stage?

That is part of our Autumn plans, we'll keep you posted.





written by: john

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:17:23 +0100 BST

@wasi

There has been so much confusion over the word 'subscription' here, and many people have got quite upset over it, so much so that I now regret that we ever called it that. It's just a name. The release model is pretty much the same whichever way round. Our current model is better for the user, in fact - it's more generous than 'paid upgrades' for a variety of reasons. My apologies in advance but here follows a long missive on the subject, hopefully the last from me.

The blunt reality is that, since the 'subscription' is buying the right to download new versions and keep them forever rather than the right to run those versions on your computer (which I think would be a horrible model, just to be clear), there is absolutely no functional difference between a 'paid upgrade' and what we are calling a 'subscription'. The 'paid upgrade' pricing model provides no more assurances or advantages to a user than the one we have adopted and in fact has some downsides in the release pattern that we've adopted and which quite a few of our users seem to enjoy. Let's compare the two different labels to be clear:

'paid upgrade'
1 - you get to download the version that is currently released and as you put so well, the version whose features are advertised and understood
2 - you get to download minor upgrades and bug fixes, right up 'till the company decides 'enough of that, we need more money' at which point a major version number bump is announced and you have the option to buy or upgrade to that. Subsequent bug fixes are at the whim of the vendor and are often not backported from later versions (which is quite understandable, sometimes this is really hard)
3 - you have to trust the vendor not to simply produce a 'major version number' change at some point, for new features or later operating system compatibility that you do not consider worth the money. This trust is usually misplaced.
4 - the pricing model is quite inflexible, you have to pay the price for the major version if you want it or, if you already own the version below, sometimes a fixed upgrade fee
5 - you do not get access to early versions of new software since to give you such access would devalue the final release, particularly in the later parts of an open release cycle when the software is nearly finished testing
6 - you do not usually get software support for the life of that version, it is often limited to a much smaller time unless you pay a regular 'support fee'.

'subscription'

1 - you can immediately download the current, advertised stable version when you subscribe.
2 - you get (time limited) access to any and all upgrades (major version, minor version, whatever) and bug fixes that come along. In the worst case this gives you (if you buy the full price version) a year of updates to whatever version you bought - this will, in any normal software companies lifecycle, be as much as you ever get, if not more, in terms of OS compatibility and significant bugfixes for a 'paid upgrade'
3 - pricing is more flexible, discounted software is simple as it reflects a difference in access time to improvements and this can be arbitrarily shortened to make things more affordable (hence our 6 month subs at not much more than half price, an option that would simply not be possible in a 'paid upgrade' model)
4 - we provide support for that period
5 - access to experimental and early new software versions is included and does not have to be restricted in any way

The important thing to remember in all this is that the version numbering of released versions is almost entirely arbitrary and quite often decided by the marketing department / CEO in most software companies - it's not a technical decision despite the fact it looks that way. This is not my first software company, I have run a number and I can tell you that one of the primary deciders of when to make a version number change is not 'how many new features do we have in this' it's 'how long has it been since the last major version upgrade?' which is code for 'how long since we taxed our users last?'. A chargeable major version number upgrade then often receives some 'dressing up' with easy to implement features to make the thing look better, but that's how it works. Everyone does this - the paid upgrade model with it's often very arbitrary nature just moves the reality a little way away from you to make it more palatable. On the way it breaks a number of nice things, in particular the ability to offer everyone running support and access to pre stable versions. It also causes companies to 'save up' cool new stuff for a major version upgrade, which just keeps them from you for longer.

So, to summarise, if you want a 'paid upgrade' pricing model all you actually have to do is this:

- ignore the word 'subscription' everywhere you see it on our website
- wait for a stable release with advertised features
- buy a 12 months sub (don't take advantage of the cheaper, shorter option)
- download the latest version and stick with the bugfix upgrades to that particular version
- don't download any subsequent versions with significant new features (we'll usually backport bugfixes into a version while's it's practical to do so, so you'll have exactly the same experience as a 'paid upgrade' if you do this)
- don't try new software versions in development
- keep an eye on the newer versions, and when the difference in features gets to the point where you think they're worthwhile, repeat

If you do this as far as I can see you'll have exactly the same experience as buying a 'paid upgrade', just not quite as good.

If you think that there would be much value beyond the 12 months in a paid upgrade model, btw, I beg to differ - by that point in any well run company the new features development has long been focused on a newer, chargeable version. And, as I'm sure you will have noticed, driven by basic economics most companies are releasing major upgrades at increasingly short intervals. I take your point about knowing you're 'on board for 2.X' for a fixed price, but that is a seriously arbitrary distinction, all it would mean in practice is that , just like many vendors, we'd save up a bunch of features in development over the next year (which consequently you wouldn't get to use), then update the major version number next April when we fold them in and charge you for the upgrade. It's just the same, just not a nice for all the players and more work for us, which doesn't exactly seem like a win to me.

John




written by: wasi

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:08:39 +0100 BST

John -

Thank you for your elaborate reply. As I tried to express, I too feel that much of the irritation stems from the 'subscription' terminology.

There still is one real and major difference between subscription and upgrade pricing though: If the upgrade flat out doesn't offer what is advertised, you can (legally, morally etc.) demand that it be fixed. If, say, it was advertised as 64bit compatible and is not, you can demand that be adressed within that version cycle. Not so in a subscription based model, where "we'll see what we can do" is a perfectly valid response and you may or may not get your fix.

Anyway, I hope it works out for you. Honestly I feel you should disconnect the software business from the hardware side. Open it for other controllers and see if you can sell a couple of units more.

Just musing. Thanks again. :)


written by: mikemilton

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:08:36 +0100 BST

Nice rant. Well put.

A version of it should make its way to the store and the FAQ.

You probably covered this but, for me, the really bad thing is that paid update is a barrier to communications and to the openness has really moved things along.

Of course, that is another good deed by Eigenlabs that has rarely gone unpunished. (sigh).

cheers, m


written by: dhjdhj

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:37:05 +0100 BST

I don't know what you mean by opening for other controllers but by making OSC available, the door has been opened to making the Eigenharp controllable by other software and I think that's tremendously useful.

Many (if not almost all) of the requests I've seen for functionality to be added to EigenD are trivial to implement by non-developers with Max given OSC input from EigenD.

I continue to believe that EigenLabs could really leverage the Ableton Live community with such a facility.


Apart from the fact that "subscription" might better have been called "maintenance", the real problem for me was that the subscription started before the software was in a form that could really be used without being a developer and/or investing a disproportionate amount of time getting up to speed.

Having recently taken that risk to get workbench (although I really just needed the key debounce bug fixed), I'll be more comfortable paying for maintenance because I have an environment that really works for me now and the price I originally paid for the Alpha is now justified.


Open it for other controllers and see if you can sell a couple of units more.


written by: 0beron

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:26:15 +0100 BST

That's two people now complaining about the fact that they are paying subscription when 2.0 isn't even finished yet. It has been stated numerous times that if you buy a subscription during the experimental phase, then your year or six months only starts once 2.0 is in stable. This means you can grab all the new stuff in 2.0 and make use of them in the intervening time (and provide feedback and bug reports if you like, that will have a direct effect on the eventual release).


written by: mikemilton

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:51:24 +0100 BST

Well, I'm certainly not a developer (understatement) and I am quite happily using V2.

Indeed, I find it *much* easier to use than either ableton or MAX neither of which I've been able to make use of (and yes, I took a run at it - not doing it again). If it turns your crank, have at it

0beron +1


written by: carvingCode

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:32:09 +0100 BST

Solution: Quit calling it a 'subscription'. Why continue when so many users have had intense negative reactions? Adapt/adjust.

I disagree that users benefit from getting experimental releases, and this is born out in so many support questions and complaints regarding experimental release glitches. Eigenlabs' releases experimental software to its user base for testing purposes. Oberon says this is a great way to give back to the software's development -- good for those who want to test, but frustrating for those wanting to play. (Yes, I use v1.4.x.)

Regarding other softwares' release cycles not being fair -- Propellerheads offered a 'pay what you want' upgrade for their last software upgrade (not a lot of new features, but several new synth/effects and a ton of new patches); Reaper has released 2 or 3 updates since I registered it in December (bug fixes as well as some minor tweaks - no charge); PreSonus released 1 update to Studio One since I registered it in February (bug fixes and minor additions - no charge). All of these were updates to otherwise stable and well documented products. I do realize that at some point they will offer an upgrade version at an additional price. But, these products are complete, stable, documented -- the companies will have to offer something significant to get people to upgrade.

Eigenlabs has released 6 or 7 updates to v2 of EigenD since late December. All were to already unstable and minimally documented software. We have no idea what we are getting with the subscription (other than Workbench, which may in fact be enough for v2 if and when it becomes stable, quick and well documented for the end user, not just for the technician).

Eigenlabs has a long, long way to go to get on equal footing with the other software companies they may want to compare themselves to. The lean programming staff do a tremendous job, but IMO are done a disservice by just about every other department and decision.

Adapt/adjust/be responsive to your customers.

Randy (Tau and Pico owner, EigenD v2.x Pro subscriber)


written by: MarkPowell

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 22:30:09 +0100 BST

Sorry to keep this thing going, and in advance for a personal rant, but I have to chip in here.

Solution: Quit calling it a 'subscription'. Why continue when so many users have had intense negative reactions? Adapt/adjust.

At the end of the day it's just semantics though isn't it? I was as big a critic as anyone else when this model was announced; indeed, I was the first poster on this thread under my old user name. My annoyance was largely due to the sudden need to pay for workbench, but I think personally things are finally moving in the right direction.

I disagree that users benefit from getting experimental releases, and this is born out in so many support questions and complaints regarding experimental release glitches. Eigenlabs' releases experimental software to its user base for testing purposes. Oberon says this is a great way to give back to the software's development -- good for those who want to test, but frustrating for those wanting to play. (Yes, I use v1.4.x.)

I disagree with this in the strongest possible terms. I think the experimental releases of V2 are the best thing that EL have done recently. It gives a brilliant indication of the way things are going and, so far, I like the way things are going a lot. I don't think that the number of queries about 2 does bear out your assertion that it was a bad thing to do. As far as I've seen the very large majority of people playing with V2 are more than happy to take their chances. Eigenlabs have been very, very clear what you're getting, even to the extent that when I emailed a query and mentioned I may buy V2 I was told very clearly to only do this if you have good technical skills and are willing to loose your setups. There seem to be a vocal minority that seem incapable of grasping the definition of the word 'experimental' and seem to ignore the masses of disclaimers - to be fair this is hardly the fault of John or anyone else at EL.

Regarding other softwares' release cycles not being fair -- Propellerheads offered a 'pay what you want' upgrade for their last software upgrade (not a lot of new features, but several new synth/effects and a ton of new patches); Reaper has released 2 or 3 updates since I registered it in December (bug fixes as well as some minor tweaks - no charge); PreSonus released 1 update to Studio One since I registered it in February (bug fixes and minor additions - no charge). All of these were updates to otherwise stable and well documented products. I do realize that at some point they will offer an upgrade version at an additional price. But, these products are complete, stable, documented -- the companies will have to offer something significant to get people to upgrade.

Be fair though Randy, you're not exactly comparing eggs with eggs here. There have been several updates to the stable, 1.4 version in the last year, which is the equivalent to the free bug fixes and minor additions that you refer to from other suppliers. In the meantime EL have also released V2 for those that want to take the chance, and moved this from a very buggy release 6 months ago to something that's not far off now.

Eigenlabs has released 6 or 7 updates to v2 of EigenD since late December. All were to already unstable and minimally documented software.
One word; EXPERIMENTAL.

We have no idea what we are getting with the subscription (other than Workbench, which may in fact be enough for v2 if and when it becomes stable, quick and well documented for the end user, not just for the technician).

Now here I would agree. A bit more clarity would be nice, especially around Stage for iOS in my case, but again, it is still experimental and I presume that a proper release manifest will be produced when it goes stable. At that point people that didn't want to take a punt on the experimental release can decide whether they choose to upgrade or stick with 1.4.

Eigenlabs has a long, long way to go to get on equal footing with the other software companies they may want to compare themselves to. The lean programming staff do a tremendous job, but IMO are done a disservice by just about every other department and decision.

Adapt/adjust/be responsive to your customers.


I think that they have adapted and adjusted and this has always been my biggest criticism. I was furious when John first announced that workbench would no longer be a free upgrade and would be a paid for feature. To be honest I'm still not over the moon about it. However, I think John has been fairly clear in the past about the financial realities that face them in their attempt to get traction in the industry. After stewing for a few months I eventually decided that I could either keep fretting about it, or accept that things change and get on board. Now, don't get me wrong, I can see 100% why other people would have been so annoyed that they've cut their losses (in fact I get the impression that this was what drove my Alpha's previous owner to sell it), but I'd rather have paid upgrades with maintenance / subscriptions (delete as applicable) and a financially successful Eigenlabs than a single free release of Workbench followed by EL going bust. As such, I sold my Pico, jumped in with both feet and bought the Alpha, changed to a new user in the process to draw a line under things, and so far I've not regretted it. With workbench I'm finally getting the setup I've wanted. If I have to pay a couple of hundred quid for the privilege then begrudgingly I'll do it. Given my wife is not working and looking after our three kids at the minute I'm taking a big gamble shelling out so much cash, but I've decided I'm willing to do it in the hope that Eigenlabs prosper. Regardless of your view on various commercial decisions, the instrument and associated vision that they've delivered means they really deserve to succeed IMO. If they were just after fleecing people of their money they certainly wouldn't have tried to do it by selling the Alpha, which is overengineered to the point of insanity.

Regarding listening to your customers, to be fair again, people asked for more MIDI support and, although John was very clear that he didn't see MIDI as the way forward, he still diverted resource and delivered what's probably the best MIDI configuration tool of any package I've used recently - that is in 1.4. When people complained about lack of OSC output the guys delivered something, albeit essentially beta, within a week, for those that wanted to play with Max/MSP (of which I'm one!) to play.


written by: bl4cksun

Wed, 25 Apr 2012 16:12:36 +0100 BST

Subscription or paid upgrade... that isnt my issue. My issue is buying a pico having read all the good things about it and whats to come..
Now I still dont have the graphical workbench i read/watched about that was the reply to many questions about configuring the instrument. Nor do I have stage running on my ipad. When I bought the pico I didnt read anything about only having support for a year.
I can get some of the features I was led to believe would be coming along, albeit in an experimental version, but I have to pay over 50% of the cost I paid for the instrument. Oh and thats an anually recurring cost.
Had I known any of this before I bought the pico. it would still be in the stores. I would add that if this was more widely advertised you would cease to sell any more picos. It may be a trivial amount compared to the cost of an alpha but it's rediculous for a pico.
Ok I accept there is a cheaper option, but then you loose workbench and the flexibility to use the pico how you want and have to relie on the standard setups or belcanto.



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