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General Discussion: Better way to reference key positions

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written by: dhjdhj

Have you considered an old fashioned approach where certain rows of keys are physically a different color? The obvious downside is that it locks one into a particular tuning unless the keys can be swapped in the field.

Another possibility is very thin sticky (but easily removable) decals that fit in the narrow gap between each row of keys --- the decals could have little holes so that the LEDs shine through. Done properly, that might be another useful low tech approach.

written by: dhjdhj

Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:37:11 +0100 BST

I"m sitting here figuring out how to play the main riff of Kashmir along with the mellotron violin solo parts. I'm having an interesting issue quickly finding the right keys to press because there are no references (like white dots that you see on guitars). I'm not finding the notches underneath to be particularly helpful as they're not in the right places for the tuning I'm using.

I'm wondering whether it would be possible to configure the LEDs so that they are always turned on in certain rows while playing.


I realize that some of this may go away once one becomes proficient but in the meantime, it might accelerate the ability to learn faster.

Another option is to put little stickies on the side but I'm afraid that would damage the ribbon controllers.

Any thoughts?


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 4 Sep 2010 18:35:16 +0100 BST

Look at this forum discussion
http://eigenlabs.com/forum/threads/id/362/

There is a script to light the tonic keys in a chromatic scale about half way down.

You can light whatever key you want by changing the numbers in the last section. Keys are numbered starting at 0 at the top of course one


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 4 Sep 2010 18:37:21 +0100 BST

here is is again... change the volume to 0 section to whatever numbers you want to light....

===============================================

description
light led root notes on keygroup1, chromatic scale
script
gain create

it to light gain name ify

talker create

it to light talker name ify

kgroup 1 output 41 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 42 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 63 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 64 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 65 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 85 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 86 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 87 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 88 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 107 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 108 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 109 to light talker connect
kgroup 1 output 110 to light talker connect

light talker listen

light gain listen

volume to 0 when 13 set
volume to 0 when 31 set
volume to 0 when 43 set
volume to 0 when 49 set
volume to 0 when 61 set
volume to 0 when 79 set
volume to 0 when 97 set
volume to 0 when 115 set


written by: dhjdhj

Sat, 4 Sep 2010 18:46:48 +0100 BST

Thanks --- is there any way to get an explanation for the lines of this script? What do the integer values after the word "output" mean in the first block (where each line starts with kgroup)

What do the integer values just before the word "set" mean in the last block?


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 4 Sep 2010 19:25:42 +0100 BST

The only answer I know is that the nteger values just before the word "set" are the numbers for the keys that light the top key in the first course. You can change / add / delete these lines as you see fit.


written by: NickB

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:16:38 +0100 BST

Apologies for resurrecting this topic. I'm a new Tau owner and would like to replicate this kind of setup on my instrument. I think I understand the part where the root note lights get set on. I'm not following the coding prior to that and wondered if someone could illuminate (haha) me on what the preamble parts do. I would also really appreciate some pointers to how I might achieve this with the split keyboard ?


written by: 0beron

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:41:05 +0100 BST

The way I read the script is this:
A gain agent is created. I think this does nothing except to give the talker which is created next something to connect to. A talker is created next. A talker is the type of agent used by a lot of the other menu keys on the eigenharp - we're making a new one that doesn't have any effect when you press it, it's just there to show an orange light.
The name ify commands make it easier to refer to the gain and talker agents we created later in the script. The keyword 'it' refers to the result of the line before it is used.
The kgroup output section I don't understand - the numbers here refer to outputs of the keygroup, and I have no idea which ones are required. The lines 'volume to 0 when n set' are somehow connecting individual keys up to the talker ( the talker is receiving those commands because of the line 'light talker listen). To do it for several keygroups would require perhaps duplicating the kgroup output connection section, once for each keygroup?


written by: NickB

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:40:41 +0100 BST

Thanks 0beron, that all makes sense. Where I'm struggling is with that first block of seemingly random output numbers and what they're doing exactly. Maybe when I can get a handle on that it will fall into place a bit more.


written by: 0beron

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:52:46 +0100 BST

Yeah likewise, we need Sam or Dave to shed some light on it, although I think part of the reason eigenlabs have been quiet with regards scripts is that the upcoming version of eigenD will change quite a lot of things so there's little point writing huge numbers of scripts that are likely to break when the changes come through.


written by: john

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:04:22 +0100 BST

Hi 0beron, Nick

It's true that the upcoming EigenD releases will change quite a few things, but that isn't the reason that you haven't heard much about this particular script, the one to set lights on Keygroups as position markers. This particular script is a very horrible bodge that Dave invented to have position markers. It is bad in so many ways, I don't really know where to start, and it should never really have escaped into the wild. You may rest assured that a proper way of setting positional light markers is in the works, if for no other reason than to give this script the graceful end it so richly deserves..


John


written by: NickB

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:23:34 +0100 BST

Hi John, thanks for your response. I look forward to the more ummm "elegant" solution. Any ideas when this might be ? He adds cheekily :)


written by: 0beron

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:46:46 +0100 BST

I've taken the low tech solution and gone for small shreds of masking tape with scribbled note names...


written by: NickB

Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:07:15 +0100 BST

For me it's not so much about the identity of the individual notes but more about having reference points to let me know where I am on what is essentially a sea of black buttons. I mean I know all the notes on my bass guitar fretboard but it's good to have the fret marker reference points to relate to. Even with the non chromatic scales on the Tau I feel a bit lost when I venture outside the first 6 or so rows. I think that the positional markers will be quite important to quite a few musicians, the fact that Dave saw the need to do what he did reinforces that view I feel. In any case having the markers would certainly aid in the learning process. I'm hoping there will be a more workable solution available pretty soon.


written by: Tenebrous

Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:07:11 +0100 BST

Interestingly, I play my Alpha like I play my guitar and piano - kinda by feeling rather than by knowing where the notes are. In fact I honestly couldn't tell you which fret of which string on my guitar is which note, and I always have to think twice when working it out on the piano. I think that's just the way I self-taught myself to play. It means it takes me a little while to work out how to play printed music (although I can easily read the relationships/offsets between the notes, but not so much their absolute positions on the keyboard/fretboard).

OK, perhaps not that interesting really ;)


written by: mikemilton

Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:08:44 +0100 BST

@NickB - I agree, the desire for this was essentialy universal among players I hear from. We would certainly have been delighted by a more elegant solution if offered but otherwise...

Personally I find it frustrating to have things (like this. but there are others) talked about and demoed in various Eigenlabs videos but not made available or, perhaps, just not explained. I think the webinars may help but so would something like a 'How we did that" section in the WIKI.

@tene - actually that is quite interesting. I'll often in scales and find that the divots on the back are quite adequate. One does this (rather peculiar but quite satisfying) caress of the instrument and then just start playing. Set it to DMaj and a whole bunch of Irish roots music starts just falling out seemingly by itself.


written by: john

Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:40:25 +0100 BST

This thread has kicked off a fairly major discussion here at Eigenlabs. This is a discussion that has been going around and around for some months, but we now seem to be coming to a proper understanding of the problem. We fully intend to make lighting keys (in what ever colour you want) as positional markers possible in a future release (it's probably not going to make it into the 1.2 series, there are simply too many other things in the queue for that) but it might be useful if I explain why it isn't the work of ten minutes so that everyone can understand why we haven't already done it.

There are in fact two separate, and quite distinct, ways of lighting keys as positional markers. One is in a geometrical sense - 'I want to light every fourth key on the left hand row down the side of my harp' or 'I want the top right hand key of Keygroup 2 lit green all the time when its visible'. This is positional marking in the same sense that the guitar has it. Using this kind of positional marking one learns to adapt to different scales and tuning arrangements in ones head - a process most guitarists will be familiar with from using different open tunings. The second sense of key marking is musical. 'I want every four semitones in the chromatic scale lit orange' or 'mark the octaves in the blues scale green'. This kind of marking varies from scale to scale, and the brain woud use this information quite differently from the geometric markings.

After a lot of discussion, we concluded that both of these marking models have value and anything that does not do both is broken.

In the current EigenD system, the musical marking is by far the easiest to implement, and this is probably what we will do first, adding the ability top mark intervals in the scale file format itself. The geometric marking is more difficult because the current data flow model of EigenD does not include geometric key information - at a certain point in the signal flow the original geometry is lost and everything is about interval and frequency.

There are a number of reasons we would like to change this so that the geometry of the keys is also preserved in the signal, not just to allow flexible positional markers but to permit certain keys to remain unchanged by Stringers and Scalers downstream, a thing that is very weirdly implemented (or not) in the current setups. So we're going to do it, but it is tinkering and adding things at quite a fundamental level, so this kind of change can only really go in at the very beginning of an Unstable series, and it's too late for 1.2.

I hope that makes things clearer - sorry about the technical dissertation!

John


written by: dhjdhj

Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:52:52 +0100 BST

Have you considered an old fashioned approach where certain rows of keys are physically a different color? The obvious downside is that it locks one into a particular tuning unless the keys can be swapped in the field.

Another possibility is very thin sticky (but easily removable) decals that fit in the narrow gap between each row of keys --- the decals could have little holes so that the LEDs shine through. Done properly, that might be another useful low tech approach.



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