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Pico: Allowing use of all 18 keys?

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written by: stuwyatt

John> If there is a way that the current midi options can be expanded through the use of belcanto, then I would be very interested in this. I've already set up a Korg Nano Pad to change keys/scales... but it would be great to be able to configure the midi control to do other cool things :)

written by: fzzzy

Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:46:16 +0000 GMT

I'm creating my own scales, using isomorphic layouts, and I am really enjoying playing them. Since the musical relationship between all the keys is always the same, it makes it a lot easier for me to improvise and learn which musical intervals sound good together. However, with the layout I am using there are 4 keys which are duplicated, meaning there are only 12 unique notes. Since I am using a chromatic scale this means I am missing the octave note, which makes it much more difficult to play than I would like.

Would it be easy to create a profile that allowed using the extra two keys at the bottom as real note keys? Having access to those keys would make my setup perfect.


written by: Theo Stone

Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:48:41 +0000 GMT

reason is is that the pico has a range of two scales, i am not part of Eigenlabs, just an owner, but 16 keys=2 octaves whilst 18 keys=2 1/4 octaves. If all 18 keys were in use then the scales would become mixed up and come out wrong. Just helping out.


written by: fzzzy

Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:51:17 +0000 GMT

Well... The chromatic scale is 12 notes, major/minor/etc is 8, and eigend supports arbitrary scale lengths, so there's definitely no technical reason we can't use the extra two keys. It's just a matter of someone who has access to belcanto creating a setup for me to use, I believe.

Of course, I can wait until the workbench is released, but I'd really love to use those keys as soon as possible. I'm experimenting with scales a lot right now and I want to come up with the optimal arrangement using all keys.


written by: tefman3d

Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:39:02 +0000 GMT

Hey Fzzy!
It's tefman. Thanks for the fix to my Major folded & isometric inverteds:
A very nice X-mas patch, sir. A many -1 thanz to U.
Love your Cancer Country cut on Soundcloud too....

Back to this thread, I'd like to have those 2 extra keys too.
A extra thought if some kind soul helps us out in belcanto;
On WX7 one has one key dedicated to sharping any note
& one key which flats any note.
Maybe this would be a good use for the scroll keys in a major
scale on a mono instrument?
You could do it by bending keys up or down or even better side to side a half step on a polyphonic instrument, but I think a discrete flattening or sharping is better in mono with the extra two keys. Thoughts?

Best -tefman


written by: fzzzy

Mon, 28 Dec 2009 02:10:57 +0000 GMT

You're very welcome for the scales and merry x-mas indeed.

I like the idea of having keys that sharpen or flatten the note. Such awesome ideas from wind instruments! I am really loving the breath pipe on the pico, I had never played a wind instrument before but now I am very interested in them.


written by: Tones2

Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:23:56 +0000 GMT

Having the two scroll keys serve to instead flatten / sharpen the notes would be an AWESOME addition to the Pico and extend the limited range and real life playability tremendously. One of the biggest gripes I have about the pico when playing is being "stuck" in a scale with no quick way to get to the notes outside of the scale. Yeah, I can switch to the chromatic scale, but that WAY limits the range of the instrument.

Can someone from Eigenlabs let us know if this is even POSSIBLE to do in software?

I also would love the option to use those two keys as playable note keys as well.

Tony


written by: bluedonkey

Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:06:12 +0000 GMT

As far as I understand once the Workbench is released , sometime early 2010, then a lot more modification becomes possible. Things like changing key mappings and pressure curves are all doable.

I have had a tiny glimpse of the Workbench at the first user meeting and it does look a bit intimidating, but having all of that power does sound exciting.


written by: Tones2

Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:37:26 +0000 GMT

bluedonkey said:
I have had a tiny glimpse of the Workbench at the first user meeting and it does look a bit intimidating, but having all of that power does sound exciting.



There's really no reason that the Workbench couldn't have a user friendly GUI interface. Heck, just display a picture of the pico, click a key-button on that picture and have a dialog with all available options / configurations for that key (i.e. checkboxes and sliders). I can't see what the big deal is to put the options in a GUI interface - most programming IDE's give you this for free without much programming which could trigger the underlying scripting invisible to the user. For the money people are going to pay for the Alpha (including possibly me), Eigenlabs really needs to do better than a cryptic scripting language. Even the browser needs a WHOLE lot of work.

Come on guys!

Tony


written by: bluedonkey

Tue, 29 Dec 2009 00:50:24 +0000 GMT

Don't forget I saw this for about 10 seconds so I could be completely wrong about the complexity.

It does have a GUI though .


written by: john

Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:50:46 +0000 GMT

Hi Tony

To answer your question about having a sharpen/flatten ability tied to a pair of keys, this is not possible as yet. There is a planned feature that will make this possible as a side effect, that of adding modifiers to scales and the Scaler (the Agent that adds frequencies to a group of keys). This is a much more general solution than just adding a semitone up/down option (which may not really be that meaningful in a lot of scales) in which each interval in a scale is accompanied by defined offsets, up and down, that can be activated using modifier keys. If you want to see a system like this in operation, take a look at a concert harp. These are tuned to a diatonic scale, with each interval being tunable up of down by a semitone using footpedals. This enables extensive chromatic playing whilst still gaining the interval advantages of using scales. In the EigenD system this is particularly important as scales can be quite strange. It is a well defined feature request ticket in our queue and will get done sometime in 2010 - its been wanted for some time by quite a few people, me included.

In response to your comments regarding the GUI, you are quite correct, it is just a matter of software, but like everything else in music, there is rather more to the problem than meets the eye. The underlying method of configuration and control in EigenD is a command language, Belcanto. Using it in a scripted manner is a new development for us, and I think that it will provide a nice bridge between beginners and more advanced usage in time, as well as allowing some quite esoteric configuration changes to be implemented quite quickly on the fly, things that take a while at the moment. Normally (and our two longest players, Dave and Sam are now wizards at this) its all done interactively, playing on the Eigenharp itself.

Using a GUI to attach things to keys in the manner you describe doesn't actually make much sense in our world. It looks like it will, to a limited extent, on the Pico, but on an Alpha, ith multiple layers of Keygroup switching, it wouldn't make any sense. Keys are not actually that important in one sense, they are just a source of playing data, and can be moved around and replumbed extensively using Belcanto.

At the moment we have quite a number of engineers playing Pico's and a lot of people are commenting that it seems it would be easy to make a point and click GUI program to control and configure things. I suspect that is because we have so far been very opaque about the insides of EigenD, its design objectives and it's guiding principles. This has made many of the ways Pico Factory Setup 1 works seem bizarre, even slightly baroque. Several people (those that came to our last London get together) did have a brief glimpse 'under the hood' from Dave, and they have a rather clearer idea of what we are really aiming at, which is to give an awful lot of the configuration and control that we programmers normally exercise on behalf of the musician back to the musician. This has made a system that is very, very different from any existing DAW. It's a highly distributed, agent based, network transparent system, for those who know what that is. Quite a few people, the tech savvy who know what a DAW looks like, think that controlling this linguistically is a bit bonkers and we should build a nice slick GUI to let people do this. I would agree entirely with this point of view if I had not watched our earliest players get to grips with our approach and start to master it. Like many difficult skills, once mastered it gives the user a whole new way of working and thinking. To my mind, that is part of our job as the creators of a new instrument. It is a fundamental part of what makes it interesting, challenging and inspiring. Potentially Belcanto represents a completely new way to express oneself musically.

Of course, the biggest issue we face, as many have pointed out, is that we need to make the learning and adoption curve shallower towards this. This is going to be one of the biggest efforts we make through 2010, starting with a browsable scripting interface (working in early test already, i think Jim is planning to create the first 1.1 candidate on the unstable branch very shortly - it will be available to download and try). I suspect that anyone who can use a text editor is going to have some fun with that, and we're going to make an effort to get Belcanto documented during Q1/2 to help with that. Al is also working on an actual Belcanto command line app, for those that want to work as Dave does and start to try Belcanto interactively for real. This is also nearly ready for an unstable release, I believe. After that we're going to bring in a point and click program (currently named Workbench) that allows plumbing and value setting between Agents. This is going to take a little longer than we thought I suspect, like every GUI program. It's not getting it working (we already have a kind of Workbench that we use internally, as some have seen) but making it look pretty. The curse of making several thousand little connections/wires look ok and make sense, it's not terribly easy - there are around 500 running agents in the little Pico setup and who knows how many connections. You are absolutely right about how it will work though, it'll execute Belcanto when you click on things..

I hope that explains a few things. I'm sorry that some of these things have not yet appeared, we really wanted scripting out before Christmas, but we've been working hard on stability to the detriment of new features in the last month or so.

John


written by: tefman3d

Thu, 7 Jan 2010 23:39:36 +0000 GMT

Dear John,

It's 2010, so where's my flying car? oh wait a minute,,,,,,,,, I bought a PIco. So who needs a flying car?

I'm the guy who opened the can o worms about a sharp/ flat keys. Sorry.
First of all: You and your team have made a wonderful quality instrument. The Eigenharp Pico will have to be pried from my cold dead hands. Thanks very very much.
Two. It sounds like the harp pedal solution is gonna be fine, better than the windsynth method. I have been playing with inverted scales with fzzy and I'm very happy with the "tuneability" of the Pico. I soo look forward to Belcanto. If you ever want to bring your Roadshow to Washington, DC please let me know.

My Very Best and Happy 2010 to all at Eigenlabs
Tefman.


written by: axiomcrux

Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:34:14 +0000 GMT

I agree wholeheartedly with this, I am really finding it downright upsetting that the eigenharp controller can be so amazingly well thought out and playable, and the software can be so convoluted and difficult to configure. For example, to turn down the volume of an instrument, I can't just adjust a slider in the software, I have to first get out the manual (every time cause there's just too many things to remember with no labeling), hit the mode button, go into a configure mode, choose the instrument, and then delicately press the appropriate volume key upward (the opposite way I would think). Every day I pray that the workbench will be more like a max/msp or reaktor type setup where you can actually plug things around and make custom patches and really get deep in and configure the eigenharp on the computer. Right now im not sure that this will be the case.

As far as the actual topic of this thread, I really would like to use the bottom two keys for notes, as there are many times that I need to use them, and I dont see any reason to have two keys that dont do anything, and if I accidently hit one while the browser is open its possible that I may change the configuration of something in the software.



Tones2 said:
bluedonkey said:
I have had a tiny glimpse of the Workbench at the first user meeting and it does look a bit intimidating, but having all of that power does sound exciting.

There's really no reason that the Workbench couldn't have a user friendly GUI interface. Heck, just display a picture of the pico, click a key-button on that picture and have a dialog with all available options / configurations for that key (i.e. checkboxes and sliders). I can't see what the big deal is to put the options in a GUI interface - most programming IDE's give you this for free without much programming which could trigger the underlying scripting invisible to the user. For the money people are going to pay for the Alpha (including possibly me), Eigenlabs really needs to do better than a cryptic scripting language. Even the browser needs a WHOLE lot of work.


written by: geert

Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:39:41 +0000 GMT

@axiomcrux, while it took me a while to remember all the functionalities of the keys, I now them by hardly and without looking. I find that this really liberates me when playing. I think they should continue on their existing path of allow all changes to be done through the instrument. I hate to have to reach out for the mouse to make an adjustment, I much rather keep my hands on the Eigenharp.


written by: john

Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:33:08 +0000 GMT

There are a lot of developments in the pipeline right now. The existing Browser is disappearing and being replaced by something altogether better. The current principle of being able to control everything from the instrument will remain (it's a hygiene factor for me - you have to have it if you don't want to look like a dweeb with a laptop on stage, which lets face it never looks that good) but you will also be able to control things from the GUI as well, in a number of interesting ways. The linguistic interface will remain as well as it is at the heart of what makes the system so configurable for musicians and the GUI will be extensively user configurable in the same spirit, to give a high degree of control to you as musicians. Part of the application will be runnable on the iPod Touch/iPhone/IPad via WiFi to enable onstage control without a laptop screen being visible.

I'm not going to say much more about this as it is still going to be a couple of months before the first unstable release as we are flat out getting Windows out right now. But I'm very excited about it. Incidentally it also includes a new version of the Workbench, called Studio, for power users. It is a lot more user friendly than the existing version which we decided not to release in the end - it is just too hostile and hard to learn.

John


written by: justbobpro

Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:23:56 +0000 GMT


This sounds even better than I had hoped for.

john said:
Part of the application will be runnable on the iPod Touch/iPhone/IPad via WiFi to enable onstage control without a laptop screen being visible.


written by: stuwyatt

Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:27:37 +0000 GMT

Well, consider me suitably teased :)

It all sounds quite exciting, and can't wait until all this is released. The Ipod Touch/iPhone/iPad client interface idea sounds great, as does Studio. Also, it will be amazing once the bottom two keys can be configured for playing.

What I would like to see myself is for midi PC notes to be able to run scripts. I have a dream of expanding my Pico with a Novation Launchpad - and assign the 64 buttons to change keys, scales, instruments, set polyphony on/off, pitch bend... etc... So each button gets its own unique and dedicated function. Aaron said that switching instruments was not currently possible in belcanto, but I hope that it is on the huge list of things to do.

I'd also like to offer my thanks and gratitude to the dev team at Eigenlabs. You have created an amazing instrument, and you are listening to the end users. The possibilities are endless :)


written by: john

Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:50:25 +0000 GMT

You can actually already run Belcanto from a MIDI note, that is how the MIDI in talkers that change scale and key work, for use with footpedals. You have to use some fairly complicated Belcanto from the commander to set this up, but if you are interested I could get Sam to write up a basic set of instructions for it. And you can already change scale and key in the factory setups of course, using MIDI notes, in the unstable release.


John


written by: geert

Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:56:34 +0000 GMT

Hi John,

I would be extremely interested by that. I'd like to be able to send out different MIDI CC messages for each keys on the Pico, and to store that in an instrument. One application here is that we're thinking of using the Pico on stage as a live controller for some stage lightning as well as for some solos and synth pads. If Sam gets in touch with me through email with a set of instructions, then I'll take the time to write them up and structure them to put on the EigenZone wiki, as we already did before.

Thanks,

Geert


written by: john

Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:27:14 +0000 GMT

Sorry for the confusion Geert - I was talking about MIDI *in* notes triggering Belcanto, which is what I thought Stuart was asking for (and which EigenD already does).

Regarding lighting control, Jim has already spent a little time playing with this here. We're about to put some controllable lights in the new demo area we're putting in at the Exeter factory (as people keep visiting us) - I'll let you know how that goes.

Oh, and as an aside, have you seen what Stuart Warren-Hill (Hexstatic) has been doing with video synthesis, driven from his Alpha? There are some Youtube clips of this now. Richard went to see Dave and Stuart doing a gig at an art event in London a couple of weeks ago and said it looked amazing (he filmed it on his iPhone and I think tha's on Youtube as well). We've actually just licensed Stuart's Quartz Composer patches for this from him for distribution with EigenD, so I think this is going to get a whole lot easier shortly, as Quartz Composer is free with OSX..

John


written by: geert

Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:36:22 +0000 GMT

My apologies John, I didn't read all of Stu's post and thus wrongly read yours :-/

Very cool that you're already playing around with the lightning control.

I saw the Hexstatic videos but I think that you need to see it live to get the effect. It doesn't come over too well on YouTube imho. Really looking forward the these Quartz Composer patches. I started to play around with this but lack the information to get this to work well. Is he triggering these things directly from Belcanto? The only route that I could currently find was to do audio analysis on some of the EigenD instruments and to use the MIDI notes to drive Quartz.

Take care,

Geert



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