Forum rss-feed

Forum

General Discussion: Eigenharp notation

Most Recent

written by: geert

@NothanNumber I think we shouldn't mix the purpose of the physical and the musical notation, I think there's no combined notation than can successfully capture it. For instance, the intervals change with scales, how do you handle micro tonal scales or non westen tunings, etc etc. All these have their own way of writing the music down so I think we need to focus on finding a common physical notation way that is as appropriate to the Eigenharp as tablature is to the guitar. Regular guitar tablature could even work for the Eigenharp, but given the various unique aspects of the Eigenharp, I think we can come up with something that makes our lives easier both for reading and writing.

Indeed, the divide by 4 approach for the location I took is rooted in the physical layout of the current instruments and on the Alpha the markings on the back give nice indicators for that.

That being said, I'm pretty certain that what I came up with last week can still be dramatically improved, it was just an initial take on this problem, combining all of the ideas in this thread with previous thoughts I already had about the subject.

written by: jsn

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:51:57 +0000 GMT

OK - I mean something like this


tonic: C
scale: major [0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12]

1xx.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... # chord:C
1||.. 2.... 3.... 4x... 5.... # chord:Csus2
1||.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... # chord:C
1.... 2.x.. 3.... 4xx.. 5.... # chord:F


Each line is a time point. Horizontally, 1,2,3,etc. represent columns.
The # at the end is a comment allowing rest of line to talk about things like 'this is a chord', etc.

Note the vertical bar usage to indicate sustain of note. I've used x's to indicate play, but we could adopt a naming scheme to indicate pressure/bend/etc. (like guitar tab, e.g. b=bend). and/or we could also indicate digit suggestion for play (e.g. a=first finger, b=second finger, etc.) - this of course is didgy due to left/right handedness. I personally prefer expression characters rather than fingering.

One advantage of this is you only need to express the number of columns/rows you need - making the tab physically transposable if you shift the keygroup around the keyboard.

I think having the declarations be lines of Belcanto might be interesting...(impliciltly having the keygroup listening)


: tonic to notec set
: scale to major set

1xx.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... # chord:C
1||.. 2.... 3.... 4x... 5.... # chord:Csus2
1||.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... # chord:C
1.... 2.x.. 3.... 4xx.. 5.... # chord:F


It would open the opportunity for being able to specify differnt key layouts, tunings, etc. without having to define a new grammar


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:14:21 +0000 GMT

Looks interesting!
Open questions (or I didn't get it ? :P ): How would the row to play be represented and how are chords handled that span more than one row?


written by: jsn

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:19:40 +0000 GMT

Ah - I see your confusion.
The dots for a column represent a row. (e.g. 7.x.. shows pressing the second row of the 7th column) hence:


: tonic to notec set
: scale to major set
1xx.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... # chord:C

Is the chord C, in C major tonic/scale set-up (that's with 4 rows)

If it were for pico you could do:

: tonic to notec set
: scale to major set
1xx 2.. 3x. 4.. # chord:C

Note this only shows 4 columns (ignores the lower 4)

Its like pinao roll, but with N dots/symbols to represent rows per column




written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:31:04 +0000 GMT

Got it!
In my head I had course = column (Tau:4, Alpha: 5) and row = horizonal...rows (Tau: 16, Alpha: 24) - as is when you hold the instrument.
So you imagined the instrument in a horizontal orientation.
Yes, this is indeed a compact representation!


written by: jsn

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:38:03 +0000 GMT

Am I getting them the wrong way around. What is the official definition?
I think column=course makes sense. So each number in a line represents the ROW each dot represents a COLUMN or course.


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:53:55 +0000 GMT


1xx.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... % 8xx.. 9.... 10x... |8 # chord:C
1||.. 2.... 3.... 4x... 5.... % 8||.. 9.... 10.... # chord:Csus2
1||.. 2.... 3x... 4.... 5.... % 8||.. 9.... 10x... # chord:C
1.... 2.x.. 3.... 4xx.. 5.... % 8.... 9.x.. 10.... |4 # chord:F

A nice property of this suggestion and the way how it denotes sustaining notes would be that it is easy to add a length description to it (imho note lengths are an essential part of a notation - otherwise you just have to know the piece, so you can't use the notation to write down something actually new).
And perhaps it would be good to mark gaps in the row numbering, so you only have to watch for the first number and the numbers after the breaks instead of looking for gaps everywhere.


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:16:14 +0000 GMT

Tried to write down my example again, with the new notation (probably you have to specify transposition and layout, too. For tonic and transposition it's probably better to use scale steps instead of note names and octaves, so we are not bound to western tonal systems)


: tonic to 1 set
: transposition to 48 set # 4 octaves
: scale to chromatic set
: layout to horizontal set

7..... 8..... 9..... 10x.... 11..... |2
7..... 8..... 9..... 10..x.. 11.....
7..... 8..... 9x.... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9.x... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9...x. 10..... 11.....
7..... 8.x... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8...x. 9..... 10..... 11.....
7x.... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9...x. 10....x 11....x |3
7..... 8x.... 9.x... 10.x... 11.....

: tonic to 1 set
: transposition to 48 set # 4 octaves
: scale to chromatic set
: layout to vertical set

7x.... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11..... |3
7..... 8..... 9x.... 10..... 11.....
7.x... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8.x... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9..... 10.x... 11.....
7..... 8..x.. 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9..... 10..x.. 11.....
7x.... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7xx... 8..... 9..... 10.x... 11.....
7..... 8xx... 9..... 10..... 11.x...
7..... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....


On first sight it seems to be slightly easier to write than to read because you have to "unfold" the columns mentally first.
Turning the columns and the time axis by 90 degrees would make it easier to read (essentially doing the "column unfolding" for the reader).
Then you can't use a simple editor anymore for inserting and deleting though but need one that can copy'n'paste blocks (instead of just lines).
And in order to retrieve belcanto phases you can't do it line by line anymore - what is a big advantage of your proposed tab.

"unfolded" version:


: tonic to notec set
: octave to 4 set
: scale to chromatic set
: layout to horizontal set

7 ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... 2.... ..... .....
8 ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .2... ...2. ..... ..... 3....
9 ..... ..... 2.... .2... ...2. ..... ..... ..... ...3. .3...
10 2.... ..2.. ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....3 .3...
11 ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....3 .....

: tonic to notec set
: octave to 4 set
: scale to chromatic set
: layout to vertical set

7 3.... ..... .3... ..... ..... ..... ..... 3.... 33... ..... .....
8 ..... ..... ..... .3... ..... ..3.. ..... ..... ..... 33... =....
9 ..... 3.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .3...
10 ..... ..... ..... ..... .3... ..... ..3.. ..... .3... ..... .....
11 ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .3... .=...


At the end the advantages of your original proposal most probably outweight the necessary "unfolding" in most cases.
And for really learning a piece one will most probably nonetheless not use ASCII tabs but a graphical notation where you have more options to allow the reader to "get" the structure in one glimpse.


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:50:14 +0000 GMT

Just found out something interesting: For me it's much easier to read the notation when it's written upside down and mirrored, because the most difficult of the two "unwinding" steps is not necessary then anymore (now you only have to mentally turn the columns by 90 degrees but don't have to mirror them anymore) :


: tonic to 1 set
: transposition to 48 set # 4 octaves
: scale to chromatic set
: layout to horizontal set

7..... 8x.... 9.x... 10.x... 11..... # ...until the end
7..... 8..... 9...x. 10....x 11....x |3
7x.... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8...x. 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8.x... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9...x. 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9.x... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9x.... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9..... 10..x.. 11.....
7..... 8..... 9..... 10x.... 11..... |2 #<--start reading here...

: tonic to 1 set
: transposition to 48 set # 4 octaves
: scale to chromatic set
: layout to vertical set
7..... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8xx... 9..... 10..... 11.x...
7xx... 8..... 9..... 10.x... 11.....
7...x. 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9..... 10..x.. 11.....
7..... 8..x.. 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9..... 10.x... 11.....
7..... 8.x... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7.x... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11.....
7..... 8..... 9x.... 10..... 11.....
7x.... 8..... 9..... 10..... 11..... |3


(You can also just mirror them 11... 10... etc (without turning upside down). This works equally well to read the horizontal layout but for the vertical you have to read it with 180 degrees turned now - not mirrored anymore though. So presumably mirroring and turning upwards down at the same time as shown above is the easiest to read approach for all layouts.)


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:31:05 +0000 GMT

Ok, checked it with a downwards scale - now I prefer the other orientation again. With the upwards scale presumably it was just easier upwards down because the upwards direction coincidentally correlated with the time axis then.
It is most probably because my brain seems to be hardwired to try to extract interval and pitch information from one specific dimension in notation (that's the case with almost all existing notations (but tab notation) and directly represented on a piano and my horizontal layout). So probably guitar players have an easier time with "notation->key on instrument->sound" instead of "notation->interval/role in scale/pitch->key on instrument" because they are used to playing from tabs? ("Which frets do I have to press next" vs "how does the piece continue")
So probably I still have to learn to "switch off interpretation" and just press the darn keys written there :)


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:52:02 +0000 GMT

Played the example with John's suggested notation with the instrument now. It's actually easier to play than to imagine :)


written by: NothanUmber

Tue, 7 Feb 2012 02:41:31 +0000 GMT

After some thoughts now (perhaps?) I better understand what I expect from notation and why we really need a "new notation":

For the Eigenharp scales and even layouts may change between pieces - or even within the same piece in the extreme case. So when using "musical notation" you have to study the logics of the (eventually per-piece) layout and scale before being able to learn the actual piece, what makes learning every piece nearly as hard as learning a new instrument - and/or reduces the possibility to experiment with various layouts and scales.
With "physical notation" which just tells you which key to play you can start to play right away - even with unknown layouts that may be particularly matching for a certain piece.
For that it is necessary to get the symbol to key mapping almost blindfolded - you don't have a musical reference so you can't anticipate - every key is a potential surprise.
So a purely physical notation is necessary for a per-piece key-rearranging instrument. But imho not satisfying in the long run when purely concentrating on the physical aspect - as soon as you understood the logics behind a layout and scale.
My expectation for a tab notation is that with the by-heart-knowledge of the key to note mapping I want to be able to "see" the music behind the symbols (not "calculate" it).
So the decoupling from key to pitch on an instrument that can at the same time play most of those keys in almost arbitrary combination is a completely new challenge that no existing notation was designed to cope with.
(And imho it would be good to make it visually different enough from existing notation so people don't get confused - in the worst case they won't be able to read any notation properly anymore at the end ;) )

Many people in the Eigenharp community are coming from guitars. So they think along the line of chord tabs, note lengths as being nice-to-have secondary things etc. I am still not convinced that this is the way to go for the Eigenharps: With a guitar you can learn three chords and "rock on" - simply because the guitar is a very percussive instrument where rhythm is in many cases the defining and interesting element of a piece (beside that no two repetitions of the same chord sound the same, there is a high chaos factor) - and you get this "power force-feedback effect".
I personally wouldn't identify an Eigenharp with "power" and "pure groove", I see the big Eigenharps more in the category of complex pieces that make use of their polyphonic capabilities, playing with two hands and using per-key expressions for several voices (at least Alpha+Tau, Pico is imho a completely different animal that by fortune share some common mechanical parts).
Yes, you can play e-guitar like riffs with them - like you can play a monophonic line on a piano - you just usually don't because for that you don't need a piano - and it's not even particularly good at it.
Imho the same is true for the Eigenharp - there is probably no instrument that combines the polyphonic capabilities with the per-key expressiveness - this is a really unique and unoccupied niche that is worth exploring.
This kind of music that I think the Eigenharp is particularly well suited for you need a notation that can represent structure beyond harmonies, give a musical understanding of the piece - and needs the physical aspect to play unknown layouts at the same time.

It will be difficult, people tend to only want what they know and if what they know does not really work for the task, they give up sooner or later and return to where things they know still works.
So imho to establish a new instrument it's important to provide tools that really have the potential to work in the long run as long as curiosity still wins over frustration or boredom and thus people are still willing to learn the capabilities that allow them to reach a level where satisfying results give an incentive to go on.


written by: geert

Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:48:40 +0000 GMT

Very interesting discussion going on here, I had a play with all proposals and obviously came up with something myself ;-)

Here are the things I like from the previous suggestions:

  • distinct points in time, but I prefer keeping those vertically as in traditional notation
  • make the format dense if needed
  • allow for annotations
  • make it possible to write by hand
  • works with existing staves
  • works as ASCII
  • works with any key layout or orientation


    Here are some other things that I want to highlight and incorporate:

  • totally document how you're physically playing the music
  • standard notation is good enough for musical notation
  • work together with standard notation (same orientation, time division)
  • has to be able to participate in a large score with other instruments
  • provide chord charts
  • allow for mixed-hand pieces as well as split-hand pieces
  • allow for concurrent staves with one hand playing chords, other hand plays melody
  • allow for concurrent staves for different splits on the Eigenharp
  • expansion/contraction of the density when needed
  • reuse as much of the existing musical notation elements as possible
  • make the standard vertical layout the 'easy path' even though others are also possible


    So I set out to write down some parts of my own music and dynamically morphed into what's below.

    Here's an attempt at describing where I'm at now:


  • the notation is written horizontally from left to right, just as in standard notation
  • vertical positions correspond to a moment in time
  • horizontal space between the vertical positions indicates a new moment in time
  • surrounding space can be used for manual annotations
  • vertical positions can be glued together without horizontal spacing to indicate simultaneous notes
  • the horizontal lines correspond to the rows across the Eigenharp (2 on Pico, 4 on Tau, 5 on Alpha)
  • the rows are oriented so that bottom to top corresponds to physically nearest towards the furthest
  • the natural blocks of 4 keys that subdivide the Eigenharp keyboard are used to further locate where you are (2x4 on Pico, 4x4 on Tau, 5x4 on Alpha)
  • above each letter you use that location system: first number indicates the block, second the column in the block (block|column, b|c notation)
  • this goes 1|1, 1|2, 1|3, 1|4, 2|1, 2|2, ... until 6|4 on the Alpha and on the Pico only until 2|4
  • each key that's played is placed on the row it's played on and you write down the finger you play it with
  • this uses the standard fingerstyle guitar convention: (thumb: p, index: i, middle: m, ring: a, little: c)
  • lower-cased letters are played with the left hand, upper-cased latters are played with the right hand
  • optionally only the changes in b|c are notated so that it's clear when this doesn't change
  • optionally the column can be left out, only writing the block, this then uses a grid of 4 columns, which is an expanded layout
  • other expanded layouts can be used as long as the b|c properly notates the top-left reference point
  • the expanded layouts can be used for chord diagrams, even within note-based music


    Examples, best to copy/paste to a fixed-width font text editor to remove the spurious empty horizontal lines:

    "Same Place Again", dense, hands combined:

     2     3     2     3  2  3     2         
    
    1 4 1 4 1 4 1 4 4 2 4 3
    . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . C . . . . . . . . .
    . c I . . . . . . A m . .
    i . . . . c I c . . . c a
    . . . . i . . . P . . . .


    "Same Place Again", expanded, hands combined:

     2           3           2           3     2     3           2         
    
    .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ....
    .... .... .... ...C .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ....
    .... ...c I... .... .... .... .... .... .... ...A .m.. .... ....
    i... .... .... .... .... ...c I... ...c .... .... .... ...c ..a.
    .... .... .... .... i... .... .... .... ...P .... .... .... ....


    "Same Place Again", section with chords, hands combined:

     2     3     2     3     2  3     23  3  2  2     3     2     3     2  2       
    
    1 4 1 4 1 3 3 22 2 3 1 4 1 4 1 3 2 4 3
    . . .... . . .... . . . .. . . . . .... . . .... . . . .
    . . ...C . . .... . . . .M . . . . ...C . . .... . . . .
    . c I..C . . M..C . . A m. A . . c I..C . . M..C . m . .
    i . .... . c I... . P . .. . . i . .... . c I... . . c a
    . . .... i . .... a . . .. . A . . .... i . .... A . . .



    "What If", different staff for each hand:

              5                                   5                 5          
    
    1 2 3
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . M . . . . . M . . . . . A . . . . . C . . .

    2 3 2 3 1 2 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 2
    2 4 1 2 4 1 4 2 3 4 2 3 1 3 4 1 3 4 3 1 3 3 1 3
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    i . c i . c i . c i . c i . c i . c i . c i . c
    i a . i a . i a . i a . i a . i a . i a . i a .


written by: NothanUmber

Tue, 7 Feb 2012 13:12:51 +0000 GMT

Looks nice on first sight, specifically the 4:4 addressing concept. Will play around with this when I'm at home!


written by: mikemilton

Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:47:40 +0000 GMT

I like it, Geert. Particularly the fingering. It also has enough white space for scribbling on a printed version.

An automated capture could print an "O" in which the fingering could be added in pencil or by editing the file.

It would be interesting to place this above the standard staff for the music which would, if nothing else, establish the flow of the moments in time


written by: geert

Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:08:36 +0000 GMT

@mike, thanks! The "O" was exactly what I was thinking about for the automated capture :-)


written by: NothanUmber

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 00:31:36 +0000 GMT

After first experiments: Geert's proposal is really nice! Experimented with typing in the ASCII text as lyrics into a staff in MuseScore - works wonderful! (just use a nonproportional font and use verses to add rows. Trick: Always click on the note with the shortest length in a polyphonic piece, so you can add a diagram or short-type notation to really each note, not only those from the first voice)
Fortunately there is a scripting facility in MuseScore, so what would be cool:
* MuseScore to EigenD bridge - step-playback with lights (probably we would have to go down to the C++ level in MuseScore for this feature - not sure whether QtScript can be extended by just throwing a dll into the proper directory - probably not - yet :) )
* automatically generating and updating score from a tab
* automatically generating and updating tabs from any existing score based on John N's EigenTab keyfinding algorithm
* as soon as tab->score works probably a low hanging but very worthwhile fruit - step entry and continuous playing entry of scores into MuseScore by playing the Eigenharp

Made a few minor changes to the (as said really nice) notation system:
1) block|column became column|block (so the columns info is now above the block to get the block closer to the tab - this is nicer for change 2)
2) in the expanded view only the block is notated - at the position of the first line of this block. E.g.:


3
....
I.A.
.M..
....
....

(index finger is one position above block 3 marker)

Embedded into a normal staff this is probably all you might want - would still like to have a possibility to notate note durations in the ASCII only view. Perhaps one could paint musical time divided by shortest note in bar (e.g. 3/4 / 1/4 = 3) number of diagrams for each bar and use John's proposal for expressing note durations with '="? (In order to see the duration of one diagram one just has to count the number of diagrams in the bar - together with the musical time you know the value of one diagram then.

3
.... .... .... | ....
I.A. =.=. =... | ....
.M.. .... .... | ....
.... .... .... | ....
.... .... .... | ....

When you know that the musical time is 3/4 each diagram has to be one quarter. That leads to I=dotted half, M=quarter and A=half.
The block or column numbers shouldn't change in between - what is mostly the case because your hand is nonetheless "pinned" to the sustained key. And for most pieces the hands will probably be notated in separate staffs. (For rare exceptions where a finger stretches out of the 2x4/4x4/5x4 field while sustaining notes inside it you can still use the "stitched" notation suggested by Geert).

Will continue to write my test piece tomorrow, so I get a better feeling for the concept.


written by: Zygurt

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 05:37:32 +0000 GMT

What you're all doing looks great, but I must say that it makes no sense to me as a Pico and saxophinist. I might have a look at trying something tonight, which has been mulling around in my head.


written by: NothanUmber

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 09:56:32 +0000 GMT

Oh, for me it's the opposite - each of the suggestions makes sense in one way or the other:
* my suggestion works with normal staff paper and has fully proportional intervals for the horizontal layout (making it easier to "see" the musical progression than even with conventional notation)
* John's approach has the beauty of having events in time in lines so you can rearrange easier with your normal editor. And it would be easier to have a 1:1 mapping to belcanto phrases to write (and since recently: speak ;) )
* Geert's approach has the advantage that you can see the fingering and has a really nice location system.

Currently Geert's approach has in my eyes the highest probability to find acceptance, so I support it (I slightly regret not having proportional intervals for my favourite layout anymore ;) But this will not be a major selling point for many, so I see slim chances to get this established)

Looking forward with what you will come up with! :) (We are still in brainstorming phase, so many suggestions are good!)


written by: Zygurt

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:29:53 +0000 GMT

So I've thought about a couple of examples.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37718515@N05/6840465537/in/photostream

The first 3 examples are all the same.

The bottom 2 examples are also the same, but notated differently. The first Bb example uses the same top and bottom hands with 2 pitchbends included. The second Bb example shows the keys columns, and as such the numbers are different.

The way that I've done it could actually just come back to the player, similarly to the way a strings player will write numbers as a reminder as to the finger position. Eigenharp is similar, but also has to cater for 2 hands.

Not sure how these would relate to tau or alpha.

EDIT: Could provide a stepping stone for someone not familiar with notation.


written by: NothanUmber

Wed, 8 Feb 2012 12:51:55 +0000 GMT

Can you please go a little bit more into detail, am not sure whether I got all aspects of your proposal. Do you assume that the reader knows the note pitch to key mapping?
(This can be a little bit difficult for Eigenharps, because layouts and scales can be changed - even inside the piece.
For most existing instruments there is a fixed position on string to pitch mapping so standard notation works - at some point you just know where to touch the instrument to get the notated pitch.
So a notation system for Eigenharp should give you a positional information - otherwise normal notes (perhaps with fingering) would probably be sufficient.
Optimizing notation for easier approaching the musical information is a different topic. Many tried, many succeeded in being better than standard notation (not so difficult...) none got a broader spread, because of all the existing literature and people already knowing standard notation.)



Please log in to join the discussions