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General Discussion: Eigenharp notation

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written by: geert

@NothanNumber I think we shouldn't mix the purpose of the physical and the musical notation, I think there's no combined notation than can successfully capture it. For instance, the intervals change with scales, how do you handle micro tonal scales or non westen tunings, etc etc. All these have their own way of writing the music down so I think we need to focus on finding a common physical notation way that is as appropriate to the Eigenharp as tablature is to the guitar. Regular guitar tablature could even work for the Eigenharp, but given the various unique aspects of the Eigenharp, I think we can come up with something that makes our lives easier both for reading and writing.

Indeed, the divide by 4 approach for the location I took is rooted in the physical layout of the current instruments and on the Alpha the markings on the back give nice indicators for that.

That being said, I'm pretty certain that what I came up with last week can still be dramatically improved, it was just an initial take on this problem, combining all of the ideas in this thread with previous thoughts I already had about the subject.

written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 21:28:25 +0000 GMT

Hi everybody,

fuelled from the drive coming from Geert's new tabulator agent I once again thought about ways how a matching notation for Eigenharps could work.

So here a proposal, that tries to fulfill these goals:
1) Can be used with any Eigenharp layout
2) Easy note to key mapping (reference: Tab notation)
3) Intervals should correspond to note distance,
this property should be retained when transposing
(this goal conflicts with goals 1&2 for layouts that map
notes to more than one key (like the standard layout does),
so we want to reach this goal at least for the horizontal
layout which lends itself to proportional notation)
4) it should be possible to write with pen&paper (a plus
is if usual staff paper can be reused, so you can
use pre-printed staff notebooks)
5) dense representation, so you don't have to turn pages
too often (at least as dense as normal notation)

This is only a incentive for further brainstorming, not "final" in any way - comments and suggestions into every direction are highly welcome!

The SVG was saved with Inkscape, feel free to mess around with it and try to improve it - e.g. the note heads are not particularly nice (read: ugly) and the quarter notes look a little bit like crosses on a graveyard :P

EigenScore Brainstorming - SVG
EigenScore Brainstorming - PDF
(EDIT: This is a link to the current version, so some comments don't apply anymore - there are backups named EigenScore1.pdf etc. for old versions)

P.S.: For the note boxes with horizontal course markers: It's on purpose that the marker for the first and the fifth course are on the same height This special notation variant is admittedly optimized for the horizontal layout - in this layout these notes have the same pitch, so the marker really indicates the pitch when using the chromatic scale.
The note heads with vertical makers should work for any layout and scale - by giving up proportionality of pitch and marker position.
P.P.S.: We will need a notation for the scale (if no scale notation is there this could mean default = chromatic is meant)


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:26:09 +0000 GMT

Well, being a simpleton, I might just use standard note shapes and write a number in the center of the body of the note for the row.

This does not seem to be a lot different than just putting tails on the existing tab to show timing (as is sometimes done in guit tab). Or am I misunderstanding as a basic level? We could also adopt / adapt some other tab markup symbols.


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:28:13 +0000 GMT

updated, some mistakes were in the first example...


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:56:33 +0000 GMT

@Mike: Essentially it's like a tab, yes, but a tab with a line per row, not per course. (In order to get it halfway dense the same trick as for piano standard notation is used: you can define transposition "key markers" (corresponding to treble and bass key - just more of them and more logical) e.g. if you have accompagnement several octaves deeper than melody.) The note heads can essentially be replaced with numbers 1-5, yes. Then you won't get the pitch proportional property for the horizontal layout and for the others you don't visually see the horizontal shape of the chord anymore (added a second tri-chord for horizontal and vertical to illustrate that - zoom in a little to see the proportional property better). But numbers can be faster to write - important for handwriting.


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:46:43 +0000 GMT

added an example with using numbers instead of "rectangle notes" for handwriting


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 18:01:41 +0000 GMT

perhaps it would be better to add a dotted line between the two systems, too, so people are not mislead to interpret that as two tabs of courses instead of as one tab of rows (with an optional offset if the transposition markers are non-continuous)?
Then you couldn't use normal staff paper anymore though (without adding the missing in between line)


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 18:37:16 +0000 GMT

re: dotted line... Well, that was my initial take, but once you get past it there is likely no advantage to having a centre line.

Perhaps adopting the treble staff as being centred at row 10 (which would obviate the offset markings). BTW, why not use 10ra / 10rb similar to 8va?


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:26:38 +0000 GMT

Yes, this is indeed better!
Changed the clef concept according to your suggestion.
Edit: Used 10th row as the one between the staffs by default (centering the treble staff around it would not leave much below for Tau players)


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:51:00 +0000 GMT

Added notation for scale and mapping to pitch


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:37:15 +0000 GMT

cute notational symbol - ya gotta *love* it


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:55:04 +0000 GMT

:)

Edit: Fixed the layers in the SVG (some notes were still in the staff layer)


written by: NothanUmber

Sat, 4 Feb 2012 21:02:34 +0000 GMT

Further simplified handwriting - a 32th note Eigenlabs logo is nice but slightly redundant :P


written by: jsn

Sun, 5 Feb 2012 09:45:16 +0000 GMT

Have you seen the version I put together for guitar2eigentab at EigenTab ? It would be useful to adopt a style that is ASCII parable, too. This opens up lots of automation possibilities including a FollowMe agent that could light up the keys for you to learn a piece (Duncan foster aka GoneCaving) and I discussed this at the DevCn. Generates tablature capture agent fits in is bucket, too


written by: NothanUmber

Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:35:57 +0000 GMT

Good point!

Would something like this be thinkable? (It's an attempt of an ASCII representation of the example in the file above):


layout:horizontal
scale:chromatic
root:C4
7|__________________1_________
8| 2 4 1
9| 1 2 4 4 2
10|=/2=1=3=============/32=5=2=
11| 5

layout:vertical
scale:chromatic
root: C4
7|_____1___2__________4_12________4|_
8| 2 3 12 5|
9| 1 6|
10|=/32=========2====3====2========7|=
11| 2 14|


Hm, code markup seems to insist on an empty extra line per line... think as if this wouldn't be there...

Clef changing from 5-15 to 5-15 in the pdf example is not too meaningful, changed it to 5-15->2-7/15-18 mapping here. (Essentially the two parts of the staff can be transposed - here 6ra/6rb)

Note length are: last :X indicator * number of spaces/_'s/='s. (The :X indicator was introduced to get a more compact representation when only long lasting notes are played)

Additionally one could add bars and other usual ornaments from standard notation (see e.g. Mike's G+ posting).


Regarding "course-tab" vs "row-tab": I like the row-tab better because you can actually see the shape of your scales and chords there - they are mostly distributed vertically, not horizontally. And the "number-encoded" part is friendlier to the human brain: 1-5 (instead of 1-24) are the fingers on a hand, we can count naturally in that area :)
And you have the nice side effect to have a proportional notation for the horizontal layout with it by choosing matching noteheads.


written by: NothanUmber

Sun, 5 Feb 2012 14:18:58 +0000 GMT

Here as a comparison the same example with "course-tabs" (without note lengths):


layout: horizontal
scale:chromatic
Root note: C4
5|_______________________10/11______
4|___________11____12____9__________
3|___10____________________
2|_________11___12_____________9/10_
1|_10___11____________13_______8____

layout: vertical
scale: chromatic
Root note: C4
5|_____________________________
4|_________________7___________
3|____________8_10_____________
2|_____7_8_10________7/10_8/11_
1|_7_9_______________7____8____


It's denser but for me (who does not play guitar and thus is not used to either notation) it's harder to get the structure, specifically for chords, because you have to start to "count" instead of "just look".

This becomes more pronounced when you start to have accompaniment - then it will become very hard to get the structure with course-tabs because many notes of lead and accompaniment will be on the same course, so you get lines like 5/7/17/18/20 etc.
So you probably have to introduce a system per voice - then the density advantage is gone and you have to read in two tabs in parallel.


written by: NothanUmber

Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:36:19 +0000 GMT

edited row-tab ASCII example above - it could make sense to trim rows from above and below that don't contain any notes at all (in the ASCII representation), so depending on piece you can show fewer lines. (one convention could be that the === row (usually the 10th) is always in the visible interval, so you have a visual immediate orientation). So for the row numbers you just have to have a look at:
* what row is the === line (usually 10)
* what row is the line below the === line (usually 11)
The rest of the numbers can be ignored as they are dependent on these two infos and can be visually retrieved by looking at the vertical distance.

Also took out the infos that likely don't change over the piece to make the header shorter.
Changed representation for note length: /X


written by: NothanUmber

Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:56:27 +0000 GMT

just came across these links - very interesting!
* Belle Bonne Sage and a usage example: Lune (It just went BSD so it could even be used in stuff distributed with binary EigenD releases)
Here an into-paper
And here some thoughts from the same author regarding notations

* For tabs: Vexflow and VexTab


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:47:15 +0000 GMT

For the cost of a horizontal density factor of 2,5 one could get full pictograms, so you'd see the position of chords in all two dimensions.
Could be worth it.


layout:horizontal
scale:chromatic
root:C4
:7 |____|____|____|____|____|____|____1____|____|____|
:8 | | | | | |2 | 4 | | 1 |
:9 | | 1 |2 | 4 | | | | 4 |2 |
:10 1====|=3==|====|====|====|====|====|====|===5|2===|
:11 | | | | | | | | | 5| |
Rhyt| /2 | /32 |


layout:vertical
scale:chromatic
root: C4
:7 1____|2___|____|____|____|____|__4_12___|____|_:4 |_
:8 | | |2 | | 3 | | | 12 | :5 |
:9 | 1 | | | | | | | | :6 |
:10 |====|====|====|2===|====|=3==|====|2===|====|=:7 |=
:11 | | | | | | | | |2 |:14 |
Rhyt| /32 |


Edit: Added dedicated line for note values. If the note values are not the same for all notes in a pictogram one could e.g. use.:
* /32,2b/8: all notes are 32th but the 2 on the buttom which are 8th
* 4t/4,/2: the top four notes are quarters, all others are half notes
* /4,4:/8: all notes are quarters but the 4th note from the top which is a 8th.
(For complex rhythmic pieces ASCII is perhaps not the best representation...)


written by: NothanUmber

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:54:17 +0000 GMT

Or you sacrifice the redundancy of the numbers and the horizontal position and use it for representing note length:
* 1 = whole note
* 2 = half note
* 4 = quarter note
* 8 = eighth note
* 3 = 32th note
* 6 = 64th note


layout:horizontal
scale:chromatic
root:C4
:7 |____|____|____|____|____|____|____2____|____|____|
:8 | | | | | |2 | 2 | | 3 |
:9 | | 2 |2 | 2 | | | | 3 |3 |
:10 2====|=2==|====|====|====|====|====|====|===3|3===|
:11 | | | | | | | | | 3| |


layout:vertical
scale:chromatic
root: C4
:7 3____|3___|____|____|____|____|__3_33___|____|_:4 |_
:8 | | |3 | | 3 | | | 33 | :5 |
:9 | 3 | | | | | | | | :6 |
:10 |====|====|====|3===|====|=3==|====|3===|====|=:7 |=
:11 | | | | | | | | |3 |:14 |


written by: jsn

Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:51:00 +0000 GMT

I think its worth transcribing a few pieces to these various tab styles to see what makes the best sense. Its possible to support both in a software tool, of course - but one is always better than two in notation.

One thing that's always bothered me with guitar tab and other ascii styles is it is a pain to type out. You need to edit multiple lines (in the text editor) for a single point in time. A nicer form would be to have a single line in the text editor represent a single point in time - think piano roll. Maybe we could try twisting the column based version across the page (text columns = eigenharp columns) and use the idea of (1,2,3...) representing the course (and for the moment ignore note length). I'd do an example but I'm rushed....will do it later to make it more clear. this form could always be used to show sustain of notes over time...but things like slides...?

I think the declarations should include scale (both name and belcanto offset array),tonic and optionally keygroup config info (for those times you've laid the keyboard out non-standard - in particular I'm thinking of Ferdinands interesting bottom-up layout)

Tab to me is a guide to where to put your fingers on an instrument - note length is an annotation to that information. Think of the difference between a slide (/) and a dotted minim.



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