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written by: barnone

I agree that would be super useful.

written by: mikemilton

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:30:53 +0000 GMT

John... Thank you for your interesting ramble. It really underlines what drew me to the Eigenharp in the first . I really thing that much of the frustration is shared frustration about getting to a shared goal. Your 'rants' go a long way to bringing us together on that journey.

I wonder if one near term thing that might show the issue you mention above might be to expose some of the controls on your models (and perhaps enhance them a bit). At least there you have control over the 'plugin' as well and can put in place a challenging target for others to match.

Anyway, thanks for the vision and its realization to date.

m


written by: john

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:09:37 +0000 GMT

Hi Mike

You might be interested to play with the model parameters that Stage now exposes. The Clarinet model doesn't have many, but the Cello Oscillator does (and you can also browse and replace the convolution it's routed through as well), so there's a room for some fun there. I'll speak to Aaron about whether or not it's worthwhile exposing more Clarinet Oscillator parameters- sometimes these can be a bit weird as they have lots of values that make the oscillator unstable, which makes them less useful.I'd love to hear about your experiences with this if you do have a go.

And to answer David's last point, I think you'll find the work that Geert is doing right now deals with most of what you want. I don't think there'll be a lot more that we'll be able to coax out of MIDI after he's finished and you should see these improvements in the 1.3 series. After that it will have to be OSC, as there won't really be much more in terms of useful transport that we can squeeze out of MIDI, and as I said before the raw data rates of the keyboards are beyond anything that we can ship in this way, so we really do have to pre-process it fairly heavily. There are some interesting developments afoot with several DAW vendors, but we're not in a position to talk about those as yet.


John


written by: carvingCode

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:01:33 +0000 GMT

dhjdhj said:
My sense is that there is a very significant subset of people who want more expressive control over their existing often very sophisticated environment. You're absolutely right that you can't be as expressive as you would like due to the restrictions of MIDI but you CAN be a hell of a lot more expressive with it NOW than with a keyboard or other alternate controllers currently available. In other words, in theory you're correct but in practice it often just doesn't matter.


Exactly. Even without the huge data stream the EigenHarp outputs, it's a potentially very expressive instrument. But, we've got to be able to hook it into existing setups/rigs in order for it to be viable. No matter what is in store for the future, in terms of universally adopted data transmit protocols, e.g.: OSC, it's important to get the EigenHarp talking nicely with the current methods that controllers and DAWs use. These are not going away any time soon.

There should be a standard (and configurable) setup that simply filters out the unneeded MIDI data so that the EigenHarp can act like any other modern controller. Let the EigenHarp pass all of its data stream to EigenD, but filter it so that it can be used with existing DAWs, etc.


written by: steveelbows

Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:18:41 +0000 GMT

Well for pretty much my entire year of Pico ownership I have been going on about this sort of thing. Clearly the initial emphasis was on playing live and using the built in instruments or plugins, with full control of the latter evolving gradually. Things have been much more limited for those that want to use it in all sorts of clever ways with a DAW, or wire eigenharp signals into instruments etc in highly customised ways. Its frustrating at times but understandable given evolving ideas about things like workbench, and quite how many other fronts the software has needed to evolve on.

Im sure we'll get what we need eventually, whether it be via workbench & some future agents that will send interesting stuff out via OSC, or via opensource initiatives. OSC is rather a broad thing so there is probably some potential to be talking at cross-purposes about this stuff. Eigenlabs may well need to add stuff to OSC in order for it to do all they need for internal signalling & message routing. And because OSC is far more flexible and not so tightly defined in terms of what messages can be sent with it, if Eigenlabs are trying to work with instrument partners to have stuf 'just work' at some future point, then there is a need to come up with standard spec for what messages are sent over OSC to be used in a general musical context and offer a more powerful equivalent to midi. But many of these complications are not relevant to people that just want to hack around now, for example using OSC data from eigen keys with max or reaktor, where we dont really care what the OSC messages are, only that they are available to us at all. So thats why I think we could end up talking at cross-purposes when it comes to OSC or being frustrated with the pace of change. Yes if there had been more focus on the DIY aspects from day one, as with something like the monome project for xample, then some of us would have been able to do some more flexible & innovate things in this first year, but other sorts of users may of had a less enjoyable time of it, and obviously Eigenlabs have all sorts of other factors to take into account. Its very hard to meet all users expectations because expectations can be very broad and what one person things is a must-have essential may have no relevance to someone else, this was apparent with a product such as NI's Maschine which didnt do quite a lot of what many people expected when first released, and NI have been playing catchup via software updates since.

Anyway Stage is not the big missing piece of the jigsaw for me personally, didnt expect it to be, but it does show me that things are going in the right direction. And Im sure it does solve some realtime config issues which likely affect a broader range of users than, for example, those of us waiting for OSC out.


written by: barnone

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:10:45 +0000 GMT

@dhjdhj

It's not very difficult to take the OSC messages from stage and convert them to midi ccs or other for example. You could do this quite easily in MAX or MaxForLive or Reactor or other, M4L benefiting from having a lot of nice routing options and midi mapping capabilities built into Ableton.

Garbage in, Garbage out. It's easy to dumb down OSC to midi, but it is not easy to go the other direction.

For me, the fact that we have a standard way to get at the data finally is the most important. Then we as users can build and share useful utilities, M4L widgets or other.

The frustrating thing for me as a programmer has been how closed EigenD has been from outside penetration. OSC is a important step in the right direction.

[edited - nevermind...]

That being said...the external control possibilities are finally opened up due to the fact that we can speak OSC, so hopefully the community can start building some useful things and share them especially with the more technically minded building things for the less tech savy of the group.


written by: dhjdhj

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 03:08:42 +0000 GMT

@barnone

The issue is not about how to convert OSC to MIDI or just processing OSC with Max or Reaktor, both of which I know how to do. The problem (for me at least) is how to configure the Alpha so that it sends out the right information in the first place. I can't make head nor tail of Belcanto and there just isn't enough information available for me to figure out what needs to be done to permanently configure the Alpha to just send out the raw data that I need, meaning key numbers when touched/released, left/right, up/down, in/out for each key, and so forth.

I think a great solution would be for Eigenlaps to include a setup specifically for use with Max. It could include a basic Max patch to process the data along with MIDI outputs (say) and distributed with the Max Runtime System for people who don't already own Max.

It wouldn't be perfect but it would go an awfully long way towards allowing the Alpha to be instantly really usable with external devices.

I'm still hoping for a coaching lesson via skype to learn how to get my alpha configured but so far I haven't heard back from anyone



It's not very difficult to take the OSC messages from stage and convert them to midi ccs or other for example. You could do this quite easily in MAX or MaxForLive or Reactor or other, M4L benefiting from having a lot of nice routing options and midi mapping capabilities built into Ableton.


written by: keyman

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 03:48:32 +0000 GMT

After a lot of post today... just came to my head...
Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get....

Having a wonderful experience with everything EIGENLABS.
In this era of so many excesses of everything, excess of sounds, of information of synths, of control etc... you have to look to what is real
in a certain moment in time.

power off...
keyman


written by: barnone

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 06:25:07 +0000 GMT

Well said.



written by: 0beron

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:46:27 +0000 GMT

Just took a look at the wiki page for stage, seems that the 'Size/Position tool' has the same picture as the 'Perform Tool'?


written by: keyman

Mon, 22 Nov 2010 18:17:44 +0000 GMT

Thanks, barnone...

For those that don't follow "everything"... check this reply from Geert and John yesterday, highly motivating!

keyman


written by: arran

Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:11:22 +0000 GMT

Just took a look at the wiki page for stage, seems that the 'Size/Position tool' has the same picture as the 'Perform Tool'?


Thanks 0beron, fixed now.

Arran


written by: steveelbows

Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:40:37 +0000 GMT

I might be wrong but I dont think the sort of data you want to get via OSC is actually available in Stage at the moment, and I dont think Belcanto is going to help that.


written by: dhjdhj

Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:10:06 +0000 GMT

Which is precisely why I have been "ranting" for the last few months (grin)

steveelbows said:
I might be wrong but I dont think the sort of data you want to get via OSC is actually available in Stage at the moment, and I dont think Belcanto is going to help that.


written by: 0beron

Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:24:25 +0000 GMT

Any word on the iOS apps? There are some rehearsals and jamming opportunities coming up for which it would be really handy!


written by: keyman

Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:57:11 +0000 GMT

No ETA, from a reliable source...working hard

keyman


written by: natcl

Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:00:40 +0000 GMT

0beron: You can already use TouchOSC, it works great, let me know if you need help with that !


written by: mikemilton

Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:22:08 +0000 GMT

A small bit of feedback about stage.

If a control changes a setting that is being displayed in Eigenbrowser, touching it causes the focus to shift to Eigenbrowser.

For example, changing the mic gain while browsing the mic settings causes this to happen. This probably does not matter if one is running stage on a network but if it is on the same machine as the browser, then the settings can only be nudged before stage loses focus.

'Not sure that it would be common, in practice, to have this be an issue. It just came up because I was tinkering with the mic.

I guess the general question is, should Eigenbrowser claim focus when there is a change to a displayed setting? There are probably arguments both ways for this.


written by: john

Sat, 11 Dec 2010 16:29:49 +0000 GMT

I think that's really a bug, I personally hate focus stealing unless its really really necessary and I don't think this qualifies. We'll put it on the list and change it. Thanks for spotting it.

John


written by: dannyf

Fri, 7 Jan 2011 12:06:21 +0000 GMT

Is it possible to create a button that runs a specific pre-defined script?


written by: barnone

Fri, 7 Jan 2011 22:46:42 +0000 GMT

I agree that would be super useful.



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