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Software: Values / ranges sent from the keys creep out of place

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written by: geert

Cool, thanks for confirming the fix!

I have to say though that Massive seems to have some problems related to AU parameters. It's not always reporting the correct value, one thing I couldn't fix was that in some situations, right after startup of the plugin, some controls display as being at 0 while they're reporting 1. Once they're updated through your Eigenharp, an origin value of 1 is being used, the control is set at that and visually showing it correctly as of then. Only Massive showed this particular behavior and there's not really a solution for it since it's a real discrepancy between what some of its controls are showing after startup and the values it's reporting.

Take care,

Geert

written by: 0beron

Wed, 10 Nov 2010 23:47:01 +0000 GMT

I've been playing with some of the presets in Massive, and have found that a good way of getting expressive patches from presets is to hunt through them to find all their internal modulation paths (envelopes, LFOs etc.), detach them and then hook the same parameters onto one of the axes on the keys or the strip controllers. The strip controllers work OK, and snap back to where they started when you lift off, and the key yaw / pressure mostly do the same, but sometimes I find they get stuck somewhere and require the parameter to be manually readjusted back to an initial value. For example I hooked the mix level of one of the 3 oscillators to key yaw, so I can play mellow stuff normally and then just push to the right a little to sharpen up the sound - works really nicely until the parameter fails to return to the middle at which point you can't play the same way without mousing around on the host computer to put it back where you intended. Does anyone else find this to be the case with other AUs?


written by: dhjdhj

Thu, 11 Nov 2010 02:12:40 +0000 GMT

It's probably worth running midimonitor (snoize.com) and take a look at what is actually being sent into Massive. It's far more likely that the eigenharp isn't sending the middle value rather than massive receiving but not processing it. But midi monitor should be able to tell you which.


written by: 0beron

Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:17:04 +0000 GMT

I've got hold of midi monitor, and have run Massive standalone, then played it using MIDI output 1 from the 'harp. Is there a way to get MIDImonitor to capture the MIDI flow between EigenD and an AU that it is itself hosting? Or is it all internal to EigenD at that point?

Anyway, in the standalone configuration I notice several things that are different, probably because of the nature of the setups and the differences inside the midi outputs and the AU host. In standalone, all the controllers seem to be in some kind of absolute mode, whereby they snap to 0 when you start to press a key, or touch the strip controller. This overrides the panel control in massive such that the dial jumps to the minimum position and then follows the key movement. When you release the key the dial stays in the last position it was in, and then only jumps back to 0 at the next keypress.

In AU configuration, with the key axes and strip controller working through the parameter matrix, I observe a relative behaviour, in which pressing the key doesn't move the dial until you push it out of the centre position, even if the dial is not initially at 0. Pushing the keys will modify the dial without a jump to 0. Bending the keys left seems also to be able to produce negative values, where the dial will be drawn incorrectly (I've seen this with faders in Omnisphere too come to think of it wehre negative values causes the fader knob to be drawn a long distance away from the track). When you release the key the dial makes an attempt to return to the starting position, presumably because as the key springs back it sends further messages (although interestingly the absolute mode seems not to do this, ie the key up comes before the key springs back fully).

It's almost as if the system is entirely relative and is relying on the 'bend right' messages exactly matching up with the 'bend left' messages to get back to relative 0.

I can see both the absolute and relative modes being useful, and in fact the relative one in particular makes this patch awesome to play - you can fade in a brighter tone with yaw, affect timbre and volume with velocity, optionally fade in a huge sounding filter swell with pressure, and then move the cutoff around with the strip controllers. The drifting controls spoil the effect by moving the home position of each of these parameters, and means the sound becomes more and more extreme as the controls drift.


written by: 0beron

Sun, 14 Nov 2010 07:18:50 +0000 GMT

This key drift is a bit of a problem, shall I file it as a bug report? I'm unsure whether it is a general problem or if it just affects the Native Instruments plugins.


written by: geert

Mon, 15 Nov 2010 08:38:07 +0000 GMT

Hi 0beron,

Yes, please send in a bug report, we'll take a look at what might be happening.

Thanks,

Geert


written by: geert

Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:19:00 +0000 GMT

Hi again 0beron,

Are you running Massive as a AU plugin when you see this drifting behavior or as a standalone application where MIDI CC controls these parameters? If it's as an AU plugin, do you use AU automation parameters or CC messages?

Thanks,

Geert


written by: 0beron

Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:46:02 +0000 GMT

Hi Geert, I see the drift when using running as an AU plugin, and using AU parameter automation.

When running standalone through a midi out I observe different behaviour as described above (absolute rather than relative control), but there is no drift as far as I can tell.


written by: geert

Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:13:07 +0000 GMT

Hi 0beron,

We managed to reproduce it, but we're still looking at a proper fix. It only happens with a certain set of plugins and certain timing conditions. I'll keep you posted.

Take care,

Geert


written by: geert

Tue, 16 Nov 2010 18:39:31 +0000 GMT

Hi 0beron,

We put up version 1.2.6 with amongst other things a fix for your problem. Can you try it out and report back to see if it's now resolved for you?

Thanks,

Geert


written by: 0beron

Wed, 17 Nov 2010 00:58:31 +0000 GMT

Wow, that has to be the fastest bug fix ever....
Problem seems sorted - played with the same patch/setup for an hour or so and it all seems to work nicely, thanks for your hard work!


written by: geert

Wed, 17 Nov 2010 06:22:41 +0000 GMT

Cool, thanks for confirming the fix!

I have to say though that Massive seems to have some problems related to AU parameters. It's not always reporting the correct value, one thing I couldn't fix was that in some situations, right after startup of the plugin, some controls display as being at 0 while they're reporting 1. Once they're updated through your Eigenharp, an origin value of 1 is being used, the control is set at that and visually showing it correctly as of then. Only Massive showed this particular behavior and there's not really a solution for it since it's a real discrepancy between what some of its controls are showing after startup and the values it's reporting.

Take care,

Geert



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